Last week I was interviewed by Dörte Giebel. The interview was posted here:
(part 1) and here
(part 2). Below is the full interview. Thank you Dörte, for these awesome questions!
1) How old are
you and where did you grow up?
I am 33 and grew up in Middelburg,
the Netherlands. I lived there until I was about 20 years old. Around that time
I started to travel more and subsequently I lived in a few different countries.
At the moment I am living in Norway and I have no intention of moving back to
the Netherlands in the future. The overpopulation, the lack of wildlife, the
destruction of nature, the excessive pollution and the fact that only 12% of
the country is dedicated to nature, make it a very unappealing place for me. And
although these issues are global, the effects seem to be more apparent in the
Netherlands than in most other countries I have visited or lived in. Yet that
does make the Netherlands a great reminder of the importance of awareness. It
helps to keep me motivated to do my part to preserve what is left of our
beautiful earth.
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| Me and my horse Arizona |
2) You introduce
yourself as "working as a PhD Candidate in Environmental Psychology at NTNU in
Trondheim (Norwegian University of Science and Technology). The topic is
Climate Change and Art and explores ways in which art can promote
pro-environmental behaviors and attitudes." Do you feel like an artist
yourself?
I believe that everyone is
an artist to some degree. I don’t really believe that art should possess
certain elusive qualities to be called art. I think if you have a message and
you want to challenge certain concepts, which may encourage people to reflect
on what they are doing or on how the world works, then that is what is at the
core of ‘art’. The manner in which you choose to convey that message will then
be the determinant of whether or not it will be perceived as art by others. But
to me, art is mostly about the message; it is about encouraging critical
reflection and challenging ‘the way things are’. It is about looking at the
world from a new perspective; through a different lens. That is also the main
focus of my blog; to challenge or at least question certain ideas that seem to
be widely recognized as normal, or even ‘the norm’; if not through our
attitudes and beliefs, then at least through our collective actions.
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| One of my paintings :-) |
3) Is blogging
about your challenges and adventures a special form of art?
According to my own
definition of art, my blog would indeed classify as a special form of art,
although I know that many artists (and non-artists) would probably disagree
with me. But to me, the purpose of the blog is more important than its
definition.
The main purposes of the
blog are (in no particular order): 1. To remind myself daily of the things that
are important to me; so I use it as a self-motivator. 2. To uncover my truth
and find ways to live my truth within society as it is right now. 3. To be a
role model to others and (hopefully) inspire others to stand up for what they
believe in and to live their truth. 4. To question things that society may consider
‘normal’ and to show alternative ways of living. 5. To create an online network
or community of like-minded people where we can exchange ideas about doing
things differently, and where we can support and encourage each other along the
way.
4) On your
About-page you write "However, society as we know it (and as we have
created it) provides little time and opportunity for connecting and tuning in
with the earth. This is why I feel that many people, including myself until
recently, have lost their way." How would you describe this sense of being
lost?
At many times in my life I
have felt uneasy about certain things, but I couldn’t quite put my finger on
what it was or what I could do about it. For example, the concept of ‘work’
bothers me, but not the idea of contribution. I see contribution as a basic
human need, but the way this idea has been translated into society does not
always seem helpful. And yet, I didn’t see a way out until recently (although I
still have a job now, but I see now that there are other ways). I didn’t know
what I could do about it or how I could do things differently. So in that
sense, I was lost. And that resulted in that I unwillingly accepted and even
contributed to the status quo, simply because I didn’t know another way.
I also always felt that
the world was too crowded with too many people and not enough room for nature,
other animals and plants. But I did not know what to do about it, other than making
the decision not to have any children of my own. I did have a dream to build an
ecohome one day with a vegetable garden, where I could live a self-sustainable
lifestyle. But I was buying into the belief that I couldn’t do it right away; I
felt like I needed a lot of money to be able to do that. I needed money before
I could make a real difference. And even though I was doing things like saving
water by having shorter showers and eating a mostly plant-based diet, it didn’t
feel like I was doing enough. It didn’t feel like I was contributing anything
on a larger scale, beyond myself. At least an ecohome would be something more
permanent. It could change the structure of society. People could live there
after me. Anything else I did seemed fleeting; more like treating the symptoms
instead of fixing the structural causes. I felt like I could do so much more,
but I didn’t know what it was or where to start.
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| Three happy stray dogs in Cuba that I wanted to adopt |
5) How did this
state of being affect your motivation?
That uneasy feeling
(knowing I could do more but not knowing what to do) kept me very unmotivated
to actually do much for the environment for a long time, even though I was
convinced that something should be done! But my thought processes were very
constricting most of the time. “There is nothing I can do”. “They make it
impossible”. “It is too difficult”. “Why would I make such an effort for only
small results if no one else seems to be doing anything anyway? What is the
point?” This is how it felt at times. It felt impossible to do anything
meaningful and the world seemed to be heading for total destruction and chaos.
And it seemed there was nothing I could do about it.
6) Did something
special happen in your life to shift your perception?
The turning point for me came
when I learned about dumpster diving. It showed me how easy it was to make a
big difference in a very short time: Not only did it have immediate positive
effects on the environment (preventing good quality food from ending up in
landfills) and on my own life (saving a lot of money), but also on the lives of
others, because I could share my finds with them. I suddenly felt like the most
generous person in the world. Suddenly, my life was no longer just about me: it
was about truly caring for others and truly caring for the earth. My life had a
clear purpose and I knew what to do to make a big difference that was positive
on all levels. My capacity for empathy expanded and I felt more alive than I
had felt for a long time.
Caring for the environment
no longer felt restricting or pointless; it became meaningful, fun and
rewarding. I felt expanded and inspired; which fueled the motivation to keep
going but also to share this experience with others, who were perhaps also
feeling held back at times by a strong sense of defeat or hopelessness.
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| One of my biggest finds behind a store in the Netherlands |
Of course there are still
moments when I feel hopeless and overwhelmed by all the sadness in the world.
But I always remind myself at those times that whether or not humans will
evolve beyond their current state as a species is not the point. I do not
define my success in terms of getting other people to think like me. Success
for me is living authentically. I want to do what is right for me, and stand up
for what I believe in. This is also the only thing I would like to encourage and
inspire in others: To do what matters to you, without letting society (or any
person) get in your way! So whatever it is that is important to you, do it.
Don’t wait for society’s approval.
7) Did your
experiences as a psychologist / therapist over the last ten years influence
your view or your decisions?
It certainly gave me the
opportunity to learn a lot about myself and about other people. But I could
never find a lasting sense of fulfillment from my work as a therapist. I always
felt like I was just scratching the surface, treating the symptoms and yet never
managing to get to the root cause of problems. At times I even felt like I had
to come up with strategies for people just to make their lives ‘more manageable’,
while the way we are expected to live our lives is completely unnatural. No
wonder that so many people struggle.
We have to work almost
every day, often doing jobs we would not necessarily choose or enjoy (but we
all have to do ‘something’). We have to earn a lot of money in our lifetime just
so that we can have a place to live and get fed (so apparently these are not basic
human rights). We are taught to look outside ourselves for security, approval,
love and acceptance, for the sake of our survival. In fact, most of us are made
into very dependent creatures. After all, have you learned to survive in the
wilderness? We never really learn to look after ourselves. Why is that, and why
do we accept this as normal?
What if you could learn to
survive in the wilderness and find a way to live a fulfilling, meaningful life,
without chasing the illusions of modern societies… No job, no unnecessary
possessions… Would you be willing to give up the comforts and securities you
think you have now, in exchange for lasting freedom? I know I would, in a
heartbeat.
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| This was my office when I was working as a psychologist |
8) What does
"to claim back my life" mean to you exactly? Can you describe that a
little bit more in detail?
It means making my own
decisions and not the decisions that are silently expected of me. But it also
means becoming more and more independent; finding out how to live as
self-sufficiently as possible. This means learning about all areas of life:
what to eat to stay healthy, how to catch and filter rainwater, how to build a
shelter, how to grow food, which wild plants are edible, and so on.
9) How did you
get started with your moneyless lifestyle and how did the food donations come
about? Did you start up your own charity group or did they already exist? And
do they have a website?
I started my moneyless
challenge after I had already been diving fairly regularly in Norway for several
months. At the start of the challenge I went dumpster diving almost every
night, and often at more than one store (I had about 2-3 favorites). I was only
taking food home for myself at the time, and sometimes for a few other people
as well. It was compelling and exciting to go every night because I never knew
what I was going to find, plus I was a little worried that I would ‘run out’ of
certain things, like laundry detergent and cleaning products; these are
normally a bit harder to find. But this worry turned out to be unfounded,
because after a few months of diving almost daily, I had so much stock of non-food
products (such as cleaning products and soaps) and food products with a
relatively longer shelf life (such as cooking oils and herbs) that they would
probably last me at least a year. Then I felt secure enough to dive less often.
But the vast amounts of
food I had found every time also had an impact on me. It was hard to let so
much good food go to waste each day, as I knew that it would be there, but I also
knew I could never eat it all by myself. So I started to think about ways to
redistribute the food to other people. And in the process I learned about
Folkekjøkken, an organization that was already doing something similar, but
they were picking up food directly from the shops (they have a Facebook page
here: https://www.facebook.com/pages/Trondheim-folkekj%C3%B8kken-Mat-ikke-makta/129282655877?fref=ts). They used the food to
cook for the community on Tuesdays and Saturdays, and sometimes also for
special events. Anyone could join in and eat for free. Any leftover food was
donated to the Free Fridge (a fridge accessible to anyone to take as much food
as they needed).
So I decided to help out
and pick up food three times a week for one of the cookings (on Saturdays). But
after a while these cookings got cancelled due to a lack of committed
volunteers in the weekends and I had to find other ways to donate the food. So
I started giving food away on a local website and before I knew it I had quite
a few contacts (mostly single moms and immigrant families) that I could donate the
food to. These people were having a very tough time to make ends meet and they told
me the free food really helped them get by. It made me feel so grateful to be a
part of this and to be able to make such a big difference in these people’s
lives.
In addition to donating to
families in need directly, we also installed two more Free Fridges around
Trondheim, where we can deliver any excess food. One of the free fridges is my responsibility
now, so I make sure to fill it up regularly.
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| The Free Fridge at NTNU Dragvoll after a big delivery |
10) How does the
idea of the free fridges work? How many people know and use this already? Are
there private people donating food as well or “only” your organization?
The free fridges have
their own Facebook page and are set up in public buildings across the city.
Anyone is allowed to donate food there and anyone is allowed to take what they
need. Whenever a big delivery is made, a photo of the content of the fridge is
posted on the appropriate Facebook page so that people know when to go and what
they can find. People find out about it through word of mouth and through likes
and shares of others on Facebook.
Here are their respective websites:
11) I am a bit
curious about your daily life. Maybe you can describe a "normal"
week, your Mondays, your weekends: For example: How many hours (per
day / per week / per month) you spend with Dumpster Diving and organizing your
moneyless life? In a way it is a kind of "work", isn't it? The time a
farmer spends in growing his own food is the time others have to work to gain
the money to buy the food - and this time you invest to "save" the
food. :-)
My weeks are pretty busy
:-) I pick up food at two shops every day now, even on most Sundays. I go by
bike, because I don’t have a car. I use a bike trailer to transport all the
food. Normally I pick up around 40 kilos of food a day, but sometimes up to 100
kilos. A trip to the shops takes about an hour or up to three hours if they
have a lot and I have to do several rounds. Now that it is summer, there is
especially a lot to pick up, probably because a lot of people are on holiday.
One week I biked 150 kilometers just for food pickups, transporting at least
240 kilos of food (but probably much more)!
The food pickups and the
distribution of the food take up most of my evenings, which means that I don’t
have much time or energy to go dumpster diving nowadays. Only on Sundays I
sometimes get a day off when the shop doesn’t have anything that day. On most
weeks, I still manage to dive once or twice a week though.
And of course during the
day I work on my PhD, although I do consider the blog and the diving/donating
to be a part of this as well, considering the topic of my PhD. I am even hoping
to create a research project around this at some stage in the future.
Even though I don’t have
much free time, I find that being able to give so much good quality food away
to people who really need it and helping the environment in the process, is a
very rewarding experience. It always makes me feel incredibly grateful that I
can see firsthand how my actions enrich people’s lives. This is definitely the
fuel that keeps me going.
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| Me getting back from a pick-up on a rainy day |
12) And what
some of my blog readers might ask (not me actually :-) ): How do you spend time
with friends or family without spending money? No more cinema, pubs or
concerts? And if so, do you miss anything?
Luckily, I have never been
that interested in concerts, pubs or the cinema, so I don’t really miss
anything. I prefer an interesting conversation with a friend, going for walks
in nature, or just spending time together in any place, no matter where or what
the activity is. To me, the connection is more important than the activity. What
also helps is that I don’t drink alcohol (or use any other substances), so that
makes my moneyless project a lot easier too.
So I can’t think of anything
I miss… On the contrary: I have felt richer and life has seemed much more
abundant since I went moneyless. The biggest bonus has been living from
gratitude. With money out of my life, I have been focusing on much more
valuable things. I have become more creative in how I give to others, including
to my friends and family. This has also made me more thoughtful and aware of
their likes and needs. And when I see free stuff being advertised or find
something special in a dumpster that any of my friends would enjoy, I pick it
up for them. The smiles and joy it brings are truly heart-warming.
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| At Lamington National Park |
13) I guess that
you already found like-minded people in Trondheim, right? Is there a growing
community of Dumpster Divers in Trondheim (or in other cities of Norway) or do
you always dive alone?
Yes, there are many divers
in Trondheim; more than in The Netherlands, where I first started diving. There
is even a diving community for Trondheim on Facebook and there are many people
who dive on a regular basis. But this doesn’t mean that all the food
necessarily gets rescued. Even when I used to dive daily, I rarely encountered
any other divers. I think I only met other divers on 5-10 occasions (in about 3
months of daily diving). So even with many active divers, there was still a lot
of food that never got saved.
Because I am diving very
often, I prefer to dive alone or with just one other person. This is because I
don’t want to draw too much attention to the diving, because people could get
upset and complain to the store, and the store managers then may decide to lock
the dumpster. That would not be the first time this happens; many of the
dumpsters here are locked. I guess another reason is that some people make a
mess, they are very noisy when they are diving, or they dive during opening
hours. Those are definitely some things to avoid if possible.
14) Do you see
or believe in a trend or even in a movement in Norway (in Europe, in the world)
concerning minimalism, simple life and sustainability that is growing?
Yes! I have noticed a
growing interest around the world in self-sustainable living and tiny homes.
Also, more people seem to want to simplify their lives, even though they may
not know where to start. But I think a lot of people are starting to realize
that money isn’t the be-all and end-all of life and that there is a lot more to
life than just having a job and buying a house. Life has a lot more to offer in
terms of meaning and purpose.
Of course these movements
have always existed and were even once the norm, but I do believe that many
people are starting to get tired of the way society works now. There seems to
be a ‘collective burnout’ happening, where people are no longer willing or able
to do their job, so that they have to re-prioritize their life goals. And many
people are waking up to the fact that having wealth or money as a top priority
means selling your life away and ‘saving it for later’, only to discover there
is no later. I don’t want that to happen to me. I don’t want to have any
regrets when my life is about to end. So my priority is doing what matters now.
And what matters to me now is being truly alive; being conscious, being present
and being aware of the choices and contributions that I make. I want to
contribute to a happy, healthy earth and to living in harmony and balance with
other creatures as much as possible, in everything I do. And I know that I am
still learning. It is a continuous process of uncovering blind spots. Layer,
after layer and step by step. But I have come a long way already and will
continue to find new ways of living an even more earth-friendly lifestyle..
15) What is a
helpful first step towards a sustainable change in one’s life? Do you have a
special tip for someone who wants to make such changes in his / her life but
feels captured in his / her circumstances?
If you feel inspired to
make changes, start today! Don’t wait until some future date, because the
future never comes. Tomorrow will always be tomorrow. The only time to change
is now. And it is possible to make some changes today!
Just start small. Write
down some things you would like to change and brainstorm ways to make it fun
and rewarding for yourself. Make it exciting. Choose something that doesn’t
make you feel restricted, but enriches your life in some way (and/or the lives
of others). This is why dumpster diving was such a great place for me to start:
it did not involve ‘giving something up’. Instead, I gained a lot (lots of good
food and discovering the joy of giving!). I felt like the most generous person
alive! Giving away expensive cakes, pies, bread and other baked goods. Expensive
types of meat, cheese and delicious vegetables. All kinds of stuff. It brought
me a lot of joy. So find something that you might enjoy, and take a friend with
you at first if it seems scary. That makes it a lot easier and more fun. I
wrote a guide on dumpster diving that might help you get started, if you want
to try it out (see http://liselotteroosen.blogspot.no/2015/07/dumpster-diving-101.html)
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Seven cakes / pies and some bread.
This is only a fraction of what was thrown out that day (behind a store in the Netherlands) |
And if you decide you also
want to donate food, always practice food safety and donate responsibly. That
means only taking meat and dairy products when they are still cold, storing them
in the fridge as soon as possible and until they get picked up. And always give
the person who picks up the food at least the following information:
1. Where the food came from
2.
In what condition you found it and how you have stored it so far
3.
Tell them to smell and check the food for safety after opening the
package
4.
Tell them consumption is at their own risk, because the food may be
expired
5. When in doubt, they should
throw it away.
If you don’t know that
much about food safety or how to check whether food is still edible, then it
definitely helps to know a few people who know more. They can help you get
started. And of course, the internet can also provide a lot of information.
After experimenting with foods for a while, you get a feel for when foods are
still edible and when they are not.
If you don’t really want
to start with dumpster diving, but rather with something else, like saving
water or eating less meat, just treat it as a challenge first! This really
helps to get motivated. First you become aware of your current habits, and then
you set yourself a goal. For example: no meat for 6 weeks. It is a fun way to test
yourself! If you make it challenging enough, you will see that you will get
creative very quickly in finding solutions to things you previously saw as
‘obstacles’.
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| Swimming in natural water sources is a great way to keep clean without showering |
16) What's next?
What comes after your PhD?
I have always been drawn
to the nomad lifestyle, so I would love to experience life like that for a
while, and just travel the world in a very basic way. For example by doing a
‘moneyless’ world tour, perhaps on horseback or walking, where I find places to
stay in exchange for doing some work.
Many years ago, I had the plan to travel to Santiago de Compostela on
horseback, just for the experience, while enjoying the journey. I would still
really like to do that. But I would have to come up with a better plan first;
including something I can do along the way to benefit others and benefit the
earth. Any ideas are very welcome! :-)
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| Visiting the beach in the Netherlands with a friend's horse |
I also still have the
dream of building an off-the-grid ecohome. So after I complete my PhD, I would
love to purchase some land in a country with a mild climate, where I am allowed
to build my own house and preferably don’t pay any land tax (which I think is a
strange concept anyway).
In the future, I would
also like to continue to inspire others and be a resource for people who want
to simplify their lives and rearrange their priorities in life, perhaps as a
coach or trainer. Another exciting plan that I would like to develop further is
to lead retreats that guide people back to the core of their being. I would
like to start doing that soon if I find the time.
And of course the blog
will also continue to exist, even after I get my PhD. I will update it
regularly with tips, new ideas or information about what is coming next.
